Alien: Covenant Prometheus 2

Alien: Covenant - The Prometheus Movie Sequel Directed by Ridley Scott

Alien: Covenant Movie - Sequel to Prometheus

The #1 Prometheus Movie Website on the Net! For the Fans of Alien: Covenant

Topic Alien franchise "canon"

Fan

Member

Posted Jul-15-2012 4:26 PM

After doing a search for the word "canon", I found 8 posts. Snorkelbottom created an informative thread about what canon is by definition and on a technical level, I would have to agree. The reason why I begin this thread is simply because I strongly believe that the question "what is canon?" where the alien franchise is concerned, should be revisited in a somewhat organized fashion. If I knew how to tag a "sticky" to this thread, I would. "what is alien canon?" is a question that many will ask and we should have a decent answer for all to read. Now, expecting of course that not all of you out there will agree with my personal feelings about what is canon, I'll start the thread with my own perception of what is canon. I expect and welcome both argument and agreement from all that would like to chime in. Here goes: 1. The introduction of the Alien as a hunted species in predator 2 2. The entire film Prometheus. 3. All of the movie Alien is canon with the exception of the introduction of the cut scene where Dallas and Brent are being transformed(possibly) into eggs. 4. The graphic novel of "Newts tale" as a precursor to Aliens. 5. The entire film Aliens. 6. The entire film Alien3 7. The entire film Alien resurrection (often I wish that this movie had not been made at all, but Sigourney Weaver is in it as Ripley, so out of respect for her, I'll accept the film with a little hesitance. I do not at all expect for any or all to agree with me, but I do want to read all of your opinions on what should or should not be canon. This post as the beginning of this thread is only intended to be the beginning of a more refined idea of what we would all eventually agree to be "the story". Thank you all and let the opinions begin!

ALL generalizations are WRONG!

Replies

Svanya

Moderator

Posted Jul-15-2012 4:51 PM

Only staff can sticky a post. :) I would agree with everything you mentioned being canon except the AVP addition. "Canon" is the word used to describe something that is "official" in a story. As in what the original director, story writer or artist says as being true. Which is what I adhere to as well. These are the guiding figures of Alien lore: Ridley Scott, O'Bannon, Giger and Cameron. What they say goes as far as what is canon or not. The AVP movies are not canon to the Alien series because the Aliens and Predators are not in the same franchise. Much like why "Batman" can never be a part of "The Avengers". It is a Hollywood mashup like "Superman vs. the Terminator".

David 1

Member

Posted Jul-15-2012 4:52 PM

There is only one "Canon" - 1979's ALIEN. that's it. and NO predator is NOT canon. btw, Sir Ridley [the guy who made the Alien movie back in 1979] HATES AVP. so... there you go.

[b]Ask nothing from no one. Demand nothing from no one. Expect nothing from no one.[/b]

Fan

Member

Posted Jul-15-2012 5:48 PM

@ david1... Is this all you can muster for a response? Do you not have feelings on what you did or did not like throughout all eight movies or the vast amount of graphic novels? '79 alien is certainly not the only movie that sets a firm standing for "canon". C'mon man, you can do better than that! Especially if you have time for all of those creative feline avatars...very humorous by the way. @svanya... Same as above, you must have a more elaborate description of your feelings and desires about what Alien canon is or should be. After all, by definition, everything that Fox produces with an Alien in it would be canon. Not the comics however, because Dark Horse is not owned by Fox and did not need their approval on each and every story that they put forth in the comics. You can mix marvel with marvel and call it canon if you choose, but you can't mix it with dark horse and call it canon. Whether I'm right or wrong, I don't even care...the point is, what did you like throughout all of it and what do you wish canon to be? I spoke up about what my perceptions are, let's here it from you all.

ALL generalizations are WRONG!

David 1

Member

Posted Jul-15-2012 5:59 PM

Nrlfetmefan: thanks for GIFS comment, humorous, indeed As for the Alien... mehhh. I'm one of those folks who goes by what the original creator decides. It's his movie, hes saying, his oppinions... so, might as well go with the flow. I used to have one Alien graphic novel... but really not that interesting. As for the rest... man, I love the AVP games, love the Predator 1 and 2 movies, but seriously... AVP movies are NOT cannon at all. neither are the novelas and graphic novels or anything else that not from Ridley him self. That simple, bro.

[b]Ask nothing from no one. Demand nothing from no one. Expect nothing from no one.[/b]

Fan

Member

Posted Jul-15-2012 6:19 PM

You won't get an argument from me about the AvP movies...hence leaving them out of my list. Some of the stuff in the comics was pretty cool, but most of it didn't add much to the future of the franchise. The problem with the "Ridley only" stance is that would mean that aliens is not canon.

ALL generalizations are WRONG!

oduodu

Member

Posted Jul-15-2012 6:28 PM

I read somewhere that RS only considers alien and aliens canon. Who then has the final say in what is canon ?

David 1

Member

Posted Jul-15-2012 6:38 PM

Nrlfetmefan: I believe Sir Ridley enjoyed that fan movie that James has done called AlienS, he even made some of it's stuff in the Prometheus flick. But he didn't enjoy the "queen" idea, for it makes the aliens a sort of large bug, wich is as a far off idea as it could get from the original script and Ideas. I'm ok with it, I actually enjoyed AlienS for the action parts.

[b]Ask nothing from no one. Demand nothing from no one. Expect nothing from no one.[/b]

Fan

Member

Posted Jul-15-2012 6:47 PM

Well guys, I'm with ya on the points about Ridley accepting Camerons take on things. Also, I did read something about Ridley not liking the queen so much. So I'm with ya on those points. I was hoping to stay away from the rehash of what they wanted or intended for the franchise as it is so convoluted at this point in time. So again I ask," what do you guys like or dislike about all the movies or comics etc that make this series work for you?" For me it is what I originally posted.

ALL generalizations are WRONG!

mandroid

Member

Posted Jul-15-2012 8:28 PM

I'm not hardcore like you peeps and I do admire you for it and the knowledge you bring here. From a purely movie perspective having not read the comics or graphic novels, this is my take on "Canon" Alien-It's the template for everything that has come after including Prometheus which no doubt be canon in time, but not yet, as we don't know enough about where it will go ? To me Alien is a struggle for survival, the calculating xeno and Ripley improvising, even now after many watches the suspense and shock is still there, every muscle going tense before the chestbuster makes it's appearance. Aliens-Lots of xeno's and men with guns, a logical next step IMO and a really good action movie, I loved it, not as shocking as Alien, but corporate misdeeds come out into the open more than in Alien and for me the shock is that it is not a android fronting it but the character Burke and his child like justification for keeping specimens alive for study on earth "those specimens are worth millions to the bio weapons division" and "it was a bad call Ripley, a bad call" And of course, the arc of Ripley as a character, no longer running from the xeno, but confronting them en-mass and also her own nightmares. Alien 3-A return to the dark, dank, industrial scenario and as close to Alien as you were going to get, for me that was apt. Handful of humans, new xeno, same old habits. Ok it may have been a traumatized production but still canon, as it end the life cycle of the xeno and Ripley, who finally wins what some may choose to see as her personal war to rid the universe of the horror from LV 426. Her self sacrifice to destroy the alien is the opposite of the engineer at the beginning of Prometheus who gives life. What I love about the movie's is the social commentary going on through all three, which to me is a question, Is this the way the human race is going, corporate greed, selfishness, avarice at an individual level in Burke, these elements come across to me in a cautionary fashion, and possible because we have been introduced to something that would destroy all that without remorse-the xeno. I like AvP movies but don't take them seriously and that is not me having a go at them, but not canon by a country mile. Alluding to a xeno in Predator 2, not canon either because of the inconsistency with AvP 1 the xeno in AvP does not have a skeleton when cut open to be used as a shield, and although the xeno skull(as I call it) is there in the predator craft, it's eye candy only, and that peeps is the magic in Sci-Fi, "lets make people think about (insert whatever you want here) because seeing is believing in movieland. Prometheus-Loved it and don't give a toss about plot holes, to me it's act one and too early to be canon. Alien Resurrection-Nice to look at but story wise it's clutching at straws, Fincher did the smart thing with Alien 3 and closed the loop, the movie was a bad attempt by Fox to keep things going. Canon....are you serious ?? That's my hat in, if I'm wrong about something then educate me, point me in the direction to the info. other than that, Thanks for a blood good post !

Fan

Member

Posted Jul-15-2012 8:47 PM

@mandroid Great post....that's what I'm talkin about!

ALL generalizations are WRONG!

Custodian

Member

Posted Jul-17-2012 10:39 AM

Meh, I'm a (Alien) purist: therefore Aliens BROKE the canon and [i]All of the movie Alien is canon with the exception of the introduction of the cut scene where Dallas and Brent are being transformed(possibly) into eggs.[/i] Is the reason why. Why? Well, introducing an Alien Queen just to battle a Heroine Loader was an abomination, it took away all the sexual allure of a serial killer with a very unique lifecycle/make-up, a totally [i]NON-HIVE[/i] entity in Alien, a lone wolf if you will. For me, Alien was the direct lineal inspiration for the mind-blowingly-good coccoon-licking body-morphing [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tooms]TOOMS[/url] character in X-Files.

2013 sci-fi horror novels 'Custodian' and 'Tandem' available from Amazon, B&N, iTunes etc...

craigamore

Member

Posted Jul-17-2012 12:00 PM

I been here on this site for a long time now and have been involved in more CANON fights than I care to even think about, but here's the rub........through all of it, every swash-buckling, splintered bickerfest, I've settled on something I find interesting: The term canon is less clincal and finite a term than is ever meant with its use. We bandy it about as Gospel and that Gospel is almost [i]ALWAYS[/i] of a fundamentally different nature than that of our neighbor's...i.e. My [i]Alien[/i] Gospel is not yours, yours is not mine and we are all of us together..different. Why does any of this matter? Why? Why do we sit here, sanctimoniously bickering back and forth like tenured professors in the field of [i]Alien[/i] lore? It all lies with the original film. [i]Alien[/i] is the one true source and the rest is up to each individual fan expert in [i]Alien[/i] lore. This notion that, "After all, by definition, everything that Fox produces with an Alien in it would be canon," is entirely ridiculous. Are we going to believe that if FOX produced a film where the aliens learned to talk, any serious fan would accept that as canon? Are we to believe that if FOX produced a buddy film where an alien xeno was partner to a city cop and helped solve crimes in a distant post-apocalyptic wasteland, that we would accept that? Of course not; of course those examples are ridiculous, but the principle stands. Just because FOX releases something with an alien does not give it automatic credibility. What I'm getting at here is that film is like no other artistic medium. You're dealing in each case with a massive collaborative effort that is almost never the result of a sole individual's credit. Therefor, sequels, unless carried out by the same artistic minds and team, are in another realm than the original. That is not to say they are not valid; they are, but as all of this pertains to this word we seem so obsessed with, canon, there seems to be only one way to ultimately look at it: Canon pertains only to a complete work as defined by a single artistic mind or group/team of minds in the production of that work. In the case of [i]Alien[/i], the original is the begining and end of where this term canon applies. As fans, we have every right to to define our feelings on where that extends beyond the original, but officially, we can only honestly apply that term in refference to what was defined by O'Bannon, Shussett, Scott and the producers at Brandywine in the original film. Remove those original minds as a team from any later project and you remove any clinical, legitimate connection to the term canon. As an example to counter, [i]The Lord of the Rings[/i] trilogy and [i]The Hobbit[/i] films to come have all been adapted from works of the artistic mind of a single individual, J.R.R. Tolkien and adapted by a single group/team of filmmakers in Peter Jackson, the producers and so on. You can, in this case define the five films together as [i][b]film[/b][/i] canon, not literary, for that reason; one team creating one world within a single artistic vision as adapted from another's literary vision. In the case of the [i]Alien[/i] Franchise, the same cannot be said. You have one film, the original [i]Alien[/i], and then everything else, directed by a number of different individuals, all with different takes, different writers, etc....the sequels, the books, the comics, the AvP mash-ups; all of it being peripheral material, each existing only as subjective preference for each individual fan to define for him or her self. This is a principal I believe exists as a universal constant in art: Canon officially extends only as far as the original vision of one mind or a team of minds as expressed in a final product. For us, officially.....canon must be and only can be defined as what pertains to the original, [i]Alien[/i].....beyond that, it's subjective, of personal opinion, and for each of us, just the way we see it...and that's all well and good the way it is.

Custodian

Member

Posted Jul-17-2012 2:30 PM

Craigamore, well ... isn't that interesting ... so, in CANON, do we 'allow' the lone hunter alien EGGIFYING Dallas and Brent? I contend that this is ESSENTIAL, as there was never any mention of a 'queen' or egg-layer until Cameron 'broke canon' and totally altered the alien lifecycle dynamic. :)

2013 sci-fi horror novels 'Custodian' and 'Tandem' available from Amazon, B&N, iTunes etc...

craigamore

Member

Posted Jul-17-2012 2:56 PM

Exactly....

Fan

Member

Posted Jul-17-2012 10:40 PM

Very often on this forum, the point of threads are lost in the chaos of the human element. Not all, but most of the posts are totally off topic. I say this because I thought I asked for perceptions of what you all liked from all of the franchise, summed up in a way for us to read and ponder. Hence me throwing in the trophy room from pred 2 and the comic story about newt. Not canon necessarily, but cool aspects none the less. As for those of you who are self proclaimed experts on the alien franchise and what does and does not dictate canon, I have this to say: Canon: a rule or especially a body of rules or principles generally established as valid and fundamental in a field, art or philosophy. To be an Alien purist is simply a fundamental stance that does not allow for acceptance of the evolving story. Alien was no doubt awesome, yet to dismiss Aliens as non-canon is plain ignorance. I remember when I received the time magazine with Ripley and the queen on the cover prior to aliens release. I was excited to say the least. I went and saw the movie and thought to myself, " that's why there were so many eggs laid out in the cavern under the derelict!". A great answer for a long standing question. The general rules(or canon) are simple: The eggs come from a queen and the eggs hatch face huggers that face rape animals so as to impregnate the host with a life form that takes on traits of its host species. The drones of the species are some smart and relentless bastards for sure and if you dont have some powerful weapons to defend yourself with, you're in trouble. Oh if you do have weapons, use flame throwers in close proximity to prevent their blood from spraying on you, because their blood is a weapon in itself. Their is an evil corporate empire named Wayland Yutani that will do whatever it takes at any cost to get it's hands on the alien species. They would willingly sacrifice a 7 person crew to get their hands on the alien creature. They will kill anyone at anytime who would stand in their way..or so it seems. One woman named Ellen Ripley managed to stay alive while the rest of her crew were slaughtered by one of these creatures. Years later she was confronted with dealing with these creatures again....and again she was nearly an only survivor. Eventually she had to give up her own life with the hopes that she would keep an alien queen from reaching the hands of that evil corporation. What I just wrote in the above 3 paragraphs IS canon by definition and arguing this would be plain stupid. Notice however, the above description does not cram anything into a corner, holding it down and preventing creative thought about the franchise. So, again I ask you all out there,"What did you like from all of the franchise and what would you like to see as canon?".

ALL generalizations are WRONG!

Custodian

Member

Posted Jul-18-2012 3:22 AM

No, no, no, you're confusing ignorance with evidence. Aliens didn't EVOLVE from Alien, it BUTCHERED CANON in the name of a(n excellent) thrill-ride. Even Cameron admitted himself, "I don't do horror," so he turned a sex-horror art-house film into an amusement arcade machine. And for this he needed the BIG THRILL, the huge ascent, the megadrop, that was the Alien Queen. Don't get me wrong, ALIENS was a great ride, a thrill-a-minute. I saw it in the cinema when it came out in a packed theatre of oo's and aa's. Very wonderful and fresh and alive - it just 'borrowed' the Alien, duplicated it, made it a hive grunt in a film full of corporate grunts, and then invented an EGG LAYER for finale false-end which (sorry) BROKE CANON. As to your original CANON argument, "Canon is what a franchise becomes," then I agree with your listed assessments. It's just that they're based on broken foundations; a crumbled canon. :)

2013 sci-fi horror novels 'Custodian' and 'Tandem' available from Amazon, B&N, iTunes etc...

craigamore

Member

Posted Jul-18-2012 12:45 PM

Good point FreePlanet

craigamore

Member

Posted Jul-18-2012 1:12 PM

Nrlfetmefan....you seem to have completely ignored or missed the point of what I posted earlier.....That you would refer to me or any other who happens to disagree with you as ignorant is, well, ignorant in and of itself. Had you read my delicately detailed attempt at explaining my position, you would have understood that I allow for your position despite my disagreement with it. As I said: "Canon pertains only to a complete work as defined by a single artistic mind or group/team of minds in the production of that work....Canon officially extends only as far as the original vision of one mind or a team of minds as expressed in a final product. For us, officially.....canon must be and only can be defined as what pertains to the original, [i]Alien[/i].....beyond that, it's subjective, of personal opinion, and for each of us, just the way we see it...and that's all well and good the way it is." You can go ahead and accept whatever you want to in your point of view. Go ahead, accept that Queen business if you like, that's fine, but in official capacity, as O'Bannon's concept for the creature works, it's Cameron's invention and a break with the foundation of the franchise. Now you brought up [i]Aliens[/i]...sure, I'll go there. Despite that I like [i]Aliens[/i], I have MAJOR issues with that film, least of which is the Queen concept; which I find lazy and uninspired. Cameron's Climax itself is lazy in that he rips it right from the climax of [i]Alien[/i] and takes no effort in trying to make it original. That irritates me as a fan and insults my intelligence as follows: They plan to use a shuttle for escape (Narcissus the 1st time, drop ship the 2nd), confront the alien (in this case, the queen), escape the exploding atmospheric processor (or Nostromo the 1st time), escape by the skin of their teeth only to have the alien hitch a ride (this time, the queen), have a battle to the death on board the escape vessel and blow (in both cases) the alien out the airlock. That Cameron could not come up with a different way to end that is an insult....period. Now, as I said before, regard whatever you want as canon, but officially based on the principal as I stated it, [i]Alien[/i] is the foundation of this story and thus the ONLY official canonical reference point. There are elements of the sequels and comics that I enjoy and accept for there part, but I can only extend that term to the story's bedrock and there can only be one of those, because the original is of one source and the rest is of others, effectively separating the relevance of each. And don't refer to differing opinions as being ignorant, please, just argue the point......we're all better off.

HyperNova

Member

Posted Jul-18-2012 3:19 PM

Nrlfetmefan, the fact that Ridley Scott filmed the cocooning sequence means that he intended for that part of the aliens cycle of life to proceed in that direction for that 'isolated situation' the Nostromo and crew found themselves in. With Aliens, the Queen cycle is a life cycle that is going on as you are watching the events of Alien taking place you just never have any hint or idea that it is, nor should you as we are as much in the dark as the crew of the Nostromo are. So it is a 'shared experience'. On a wider scale, the Human race as a whole is unaware of the deeper complexities that this alien life form is capable of and that is to me the most intriguing element of the alien species power, that it has all of these ways to regenerate its own species from the most bleakest of circumstances. It is dicing with that edge of extinction all of the time. So the introduction of the Alien Queen is the core liniage of the creatures procreation but Alien tells us that it is capable of thinking as an idipendant organism as much as being part of the Hive colony as a whole. That is not dissimilar to the way Humans act sometimes, we are both individuals with self-determining intentions yet we like or want to fuction as part of the whole and thus being of benifit to the Greater Good. The alien was just defaulting to redundancy when faced with possible extinction aboard the Nostromo so it acted accordingly and attempted to force things towards its favor and was succeeding with the advent of Brett and Dallas both being cocooned. The eggs they would have been transformed into and thus the facehuggers they both would have spawned would have been all things being equal as there was three humans left at this particular moment with regards to Ripley, Lambert and Parker. So the picture of survival was looking increasingly in favor of the Alien during this point in the film.

Fan

Member

Posted Jul-18-2012 5:42 PM

@ craigamore.....lol! This is not an argument that I will win....definitely a losing battle. Even though I do not know any of you personally, this certainly does not give me the right to be rude to any of you. General respect on the Internet can be hard to find sometimes, probably because we don't have to face one and other regularly and therefor there are no real repercussions to our statements...in saying this, if using the words ignorance or stupid seemed directed at any one of you in perticular, I apologize, they were not. If you can't already tell from my posts, the point of the thread was to find aspects of all of the franchise that would be cool to have as canon. If Ridley or o'bannon or any of the original creators of alien have written a statement clarifying what canon really is, then simply show me the link or quote them. I would love to read an article or something where the original creators explain the facts. That would be awesome. Asking me to accept your definition of alien canon is awfully hard for me to do. Ridley makes a theatrical cut of alien that does not include the cocooning scene and then 17 years after Aliens, fox and Ridley release a dcut that includes this scene....why? Because with the introduction of DVD technology, we have seen an explosion of dcuts and bonus features with the sole purpose of making money. They made their money and their going to find a way to make more and more in any way that they can. I would be willing to wager that if the cocooning scene was intended to be canon, then we shall see hints to this in Prometheus sequels. Let me make one thing clear...I hope they do introduce the cocooning and an explanation of how or why. I have no problem with this. Now, I'm done arguing canon here. I know the definition of canon whether it pertains to music, masonry or movies...it's all the same. If you guys choose to only take Alien into consideration, than so be it. Ima keep thinking I'm right to be open minded regardless. Alien Conservatives vs Alien liberals...it reminds me of something...hmmmm....can't quite put my finger on it....

ALL generalizations are WRONG!

Custodian

Member

Posted Jul-19-2012 1:33 AM

The RED ELEPHANT BLUE DONKEY game, eh? The Labour Conservative game, eh? The black white game, eh? The us vs them game, eh? The win win win at all costs CORPORATE WAR game, eh? It's the TAKING PART that matters, the PROFIT to be gained as a Player, DEBATE is just another GAME. The profit here (for better or for worse) is that THE ALIEN UNIVERSE took a narrative dogleg once Cameron added his Queen Bee jelly. Yes, you CAN cherry-pick from a Broken Canon to create any mish-mosh of chimera, you really can, it's totally valid and happens in REAL LIFE at every turn; I mean look at the world of finance, religion, internet - it's all illusion for GAIN. But (in classical Darwinistic terms) you have to 'find a suitable environment' for your 'random mutation'. I totally agree with the TOOMS-like aspect of THE ORIGINAL ALIEN WAS PANICKING setting two eggs to one side, so that his kind could continue on. This shows lineal awareness, a soul if you will. The giger-grunts in Aliens had been DE-SOULED, which might have been a necessary part of 'evolving' canon. Who knows? That was never mentioned. There was (give it credit where it's due) suggestion that they still had soul, or at least respect 1) when Queen passes they step aside 2) when Ripley3 is confronted dogalien recognises Queen Chestburster snuggled in chestly womb. If you're gonna DEBATE, enjoy the debate i.e. don't intend to WIN as that'll become your weakness.

2013 sci-fi horror novels 'Custodian' and 'Tandem' available from Amazon, B&N, iTunes etc...

Fan

Member

Posted Jul-19-2012 6:25 AM

Nicely put Freeplanet. If we were to draw a parallel to the politics of today, the thread seems more like an example of the polarization between our American conservatives and liberals. No real desire to cross the isle.... So many have said that by introducing the queen, Cameron turned the Alien into a bug. It does kind of seem like that doesn't it? I wonder if Cameron had a chat with Ridley about the Alien before creating Aliens....you know, to find an appropriate direction to take the next step. "The notion, you know, was taken off a certain type of insect that will use a host for its eggs and then in that host, preferably a grub, would bury its eggs in. Then, of course, the eggs would grow and consume the host. That's the logic of it all." Ridley Scott 1992 The alien life cycle was modeled after an insects, why not have a queen? I think Cameron did more research than people give him credit for.

ALL generalizations are WRONG!

craigamore

Member

Posted Jul-19-2012 2:33 PM

Nrlfetmefan.....thank you for the apology. Anyway, we're cool, I have no issue with your opinion, I just differ from it. Heck, I grew up loving [i]Aliens[/i], I just grew to a stage it lost some of my respect, not all, but some and I do have a tendency to argue that perspective vigorously....so, sorry if I came off as strong as well.

Fan

Member

Posted Jul-19-2012 9:26 PM

@ craigamore...thanks for saying. Posting replies is like texting someone, no discernible inflection. I don't know if the community is having fun and the community doesn't know if I'm having fun during all of this debate. I personally am having fun. Hey guys, I'm a grown man who owns a successful business and I'm trying to build a house at the same time. I have have no energy to get angry with any of you. I look forward to my mornings with some coffee and the iPad and Prometheus-movie.com baby! Same goes for when Im unwinding after a long days work. I've always loved the alien franchise, but in the last year or so, this site has educated me on the many finer points of everything alien. I love it. I did make a huge mistake however when I started the thread and only noticed it this morning. I made a point of saying what is canon as opposed to what I wish or would like canon to be. Big difference between the two. Sorry about that. I was hoping for more of a fun and creative mixture of the best aspects of the entire franchise. Of course not everyone would agree, but since it cant hurt, why not try. I was thinking about this canon thing because the stories are there, whether we like them or not. The comic stories have been printed and the games have been played(avp2 survivor, aliens against marines...quarantine...my favorite). I suppose that Fox could reboot the franchise after the Prometheus movies are done with, but I seriously doubt it. It wouldn't be a surprise to me if a book comes out clarifying what the universe really consists of....hell, they did it for star wars many times. Anyway, back to some debate. In my previous post, I quoted Ridley talking about the idea for the alien being derived from a certain type of insect. Many people seem to dislike Aliens on the basis of how it turned the horrific Alien into a bug. His statement suggests to me that it is kinda supposed to be an alien bug. Thoughts?

ALL generalizations are WRONG!

genjitsu17

Member

Posted Jul-19-2012 10:30 PM

Correct, the original life cycle was based on a wasp. I don't have a problem with the queen or the possibility of egg-morphs.

I may work for the company, but im really an OK guy.

HyperNova

Member

Posted Jul-20-2012 3:38 AM

I like the idea of the xenomorphs having a 'Hive Mind' quality to them and their nature is, as well as Bio Mechanical, but Bio-Insectal'. Operating upon a common instinct and shared communial aspect that preserves and ultimately benifits the whole. Much like bees or as was said earlier wasps.

Custodian

Member

Posted Jul-20-2012 8:22 AM

genjitsu-ju-nana, YES, but this was a LONE 'ichneumon wasp or braconid wasp', the one that injects its larvae into paralysed insects. [list] Spider wasps inspired the Alien's characteristic of laying eggs in a person's chest that later burst out. These insects are said to plant their eggs "in the abdomen of spiders." This image greatly disturbed Dan O'Bannon so he used it to write the film's story. But spider wasps (pompilidae) lay eggs on their prey, not inside them, after which the wasp maggots simply snack on the sting-paralyzed spiders. O'Bannon may have been thinking of either [b]ichneumon wasps or braconid wasps[/b] instead. The ichneumon drills a single egg into a wood-boring beetle larva while braconids inject eggs inside certain caterpillars. Both result in fatal hatch-outs more similar to O'Bannon's Alien. [/list] I.e. still no QUEEN or HIVE needed. There was an excellent short story by Cordwainer Smith called something like A Planet Named Shayol which had criminals being sent down to an inhospitable desert planet to give birth to extra limbs, eyes and internal organs so that others could live. This is the impression I get from the image below (from this original Giger painting) where the original ALIEN was capable of growing little alien babies off its own shell or skull or carapace, look at those skeletal foetuses under its protuberances. [img]http://www.alienlegend.com/Alien/Trivia/necronomiv.jpg[/img] I think something properly unique and truly wonderful as far as ALIEN LIFEFORM has just been BRUTALLY PROSTITUTED by Cameron's hiving of the space-race for simple rollercoaster entertainment, and that's the real shame here.

2013 sci-fi horror novels 'Custodian' and 'Tandem' available from Amazon, B&N, iTunes etc...

Fan

Member

Posted Jul-20-2012 9:55 AM

@freeplanet I totally see where your ideas are coming from. However, its hard for me to accept a lithograph that predates the final version of the Alien by quite a few years as basis for the intended lifecycle. There is no question that it was the necronomicon IV image that inspired the Alien, but the final design was modified quite a bit...don't you agree? Just sayin. Do any of you know of quotes or clips that elaborate on some of these ideas or questions? The Ridley commentary of alien makes note of the intended bug like life cycle, but the cocooning scene was not in that version. I did watch a 10min interview with Ridley where he discusses the cocoon scene and how the cocoon is consuming Brent and Dallas, but there is no mention of lifecycle or the turning them into eggs. However, there is no question in my mind that it appears Brent is being turned into an egg.

ALL generalizations are WRONG!

Custodian

Member

Posted Jul-20-2012 11:36 AM

I see the whole thing as a "wasted opportunity" to PROPERLY expand the Alien Mythos (as it potentially had), you know rather than wandering off down 'hive' territory. :) Canon as all the Alien AVP films, I have no problem with. Seriously, the most important thing, for me, from the 'canon that became' is the AVP aspect (ironically) using the hive aliens as a manhood test.

2013 sci-fi horror novels 'Custodian' and 'Tandem' available from Amazon, B&N, iTunes etc...

HyperNova

Member

Posted Jul-20-2012 12:21 PM

Both life cycles co-exist for the Alien xeno, it is capable of either-or. The Queen was already in existence while the events of Alien were unfolding its just we never see her. 'Her' story was dealt with in the sequel but if you think of the logic of the situation she has always been there in existence upon LV-426 for a long, long time. The life cycle is dual-compatible, it can employ both as and when the time, motive or opportunity presenting itself should arise. The subsequent films were opportunities to expand upon the Alien xeno's life cycle potential. Thus far, the singlular alien xeno in aboard the Nostromo was attempting to preserve the destiny of the 'Hive' as a whole, like ants, it was pre-programmed from conception to birth to biologically conquer all before it to ensure both its and that of its colonies' survival. From growth to maturity it just became systematic in its intentions to overpower the crew and to begin the 'conversion process' upon both Brett and Dallas and it was in the advanced stages of succeeding with regards to Brett at least before Ripley happend upon the creatures 'nest' and torched it with the flame thrower.

Add A Reply

Please sign in to reply to this topic!

Latest Prometheus Topics

Username:


Password:


Stay Logged In

Content Policies & Legal Disclaimers

Please review our rules before sharing content